Any time is a great time to preach or teach through Revelation, but this book is especially relevant in today’s times of worldwide unrest and uncertainty. Jim Wicker, professor of New Testament at SWBTS, discusses how preachers and teachers can determine their interpretive view of Revelation, how to identify the best commentaries for studying Revelation, and how to organize a preaching or teaching series on this book.
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Scott Maze 0:00
Well, good morning. This Scott Maze here, and I want to welcome all you guys for jumping in with us. And I know we have a wealth of of just pastors and teaching and probably a lot of degrees out there. And I’m joined by Dr Jim Wicker today. I pastor locally here, and graduated in 98 and again in ’06, because I I just needed more. My wife said I needed more after after the second time. But Dr Wicker, thanks for being with us today, and we’re gonna talk today about teaching through and preaching through the book of Revelation. And I need this. I’m 52 I’ve passed her 27 years, and I’ve never been brave enough to tackle revelation on Sunday morning. Take a minute Introduce yourself. Would you?
Jim Wicker 0:40
Sure! Jim Wicker, I was graduated here twice with my masters, then my PhD, and then was a pastor for 19 years, and planned to do that till I retired, but I felt Lord, the Lord called me to then come to Southwestern and train The Next Generations, which I’ve been doing since 2000 and love it. I teach, of course, I love being a pastor, too. I teach New Testament and biblical hermeneutics, which is how to interpret the Bible. And it’s been a great privilege to do that. And I found that there’s a wonderful, a great interest, especially lately, in Revelation. So I thought this would be a timely topic for today.
Scott Maze 1:18
So Revelation, or revelations? Does that matter?
Jim Wicker 1:23
So I have a tie that has Bible books on it and has revelation with the end on it, and that’s one of my pet peeves. So yes, the revelation, which is the apocalypse, the unveiling that God gave John. And so yes, there’s one, actually several visions, but one book of Revelation.
Scott Maze 1:43
Yes, a pet peeve of mine. So let’s start out here. What is the difference between teaching through Revelation and preaching through Revelation?
Jim Wicker 1:52
So the basic course question of difference between teaching and preaching. Course, in preaching, you more advocate a view, and in teaching you typically spend more time to give the different views. But I think there’s no more of a difference than in the book of Revelation, because as Baptists and even evangelicals, a lot of the scriptures we come to will have the same interpretation. But revelation, when we deal with eschatology, the end times, then while there’s core issues we agree on, there’s secondary or tertiary issues we can disagree on and do it agreeably. So there’s more of a difference then with these various views that other good Bible believing conservative Christians can have. But in a sermon, it’s difficult to give the various viewpoints. Just by the way a sermon is so I think with the sermon, you more advocate your interpretive view of Revelation, and you preach that at the same time, you want to work into that sermon that there are other views that are still viable or possible, let’s say, but in teaching, you can then give more time to each of those views. And so I think that’s the main difference. And in preaching, you’re going to advocate a view, and of course, you’re going to more often. In preaching, look for those times of application. Okay, it’s what does this mean to me today, and what did it mean to the people that read it back in John’s day?
Scott Maze 3:25
That’s good. Okay, so a lot of times we do verse by verse. Do you recommend going through verse by verse through the book of Revelation?
Jim Wicker 3:35
For the book Revelation, I like verse by verse as the general rule for preaching, but what my suggestion is for revelation is to do it in three different series, because it’s just it’s going to be so long if you do it verse by verse. So I would recommend doing one sermon series on the the introduction, the the vision of Jesus in chapter one, and it can be an overview and that beautiful vision that you have, you can get several sermons out of that, that that vision of Jesus, then you can follow up with chapters two and three on the seven churches of Revelation. Well, really, you can have a sermon for each of those churches, and then one as an introduction. So there’s a eight week series. Then I would do four through 22 but even then, if you do verse by verse, again, it depends on what you’re wanting to accomplish. If you, if you’re if your congregation is used to a sermon series going for a year, year and a half or two years, then that’s great. However, other congregations, they’re used to sermons in, let’s say, three or four month period. So in that situation, I still divide it up into those three sections one and then, well, let me say, excuse me, four, four sections. Let me back up. So chapter one. And two and three, the seven churches, four and five, the church, the chapters on worship I’m for, forgive me for getting married, permit it nowhere. So that those are great sermons on worship in four and five and then six through 22 but again, if your congregation is used to and you’re used to preaching through, like I say, three or four months series. Then you might do it chapter by chapter and in in a chapter by chapter, or even some sermons, you might cover two chapters, like revelation 17 and 18, about Babylon. Then you’re not going to necessarily go over every verse, but you’re going to hit the major verses of those chapters, so section by section can work.
Scott Maze 5:44
That’s helpful. And again, as you talk about the pacing of a church as used to in the pastor, you mentioned revelation four and five, just as a note, Edwards has a fantastic sermon on that in the Banner of Truth the two volume. Back when I bought it, I think it’s more of a brown, brown jacket. I don’t know why I remember book jackets, but, you know, it’s interesting. When you look at Revelation, how many great pastors, great theologians? Well, they didn’t tackle it as memory serves. I don’t think, I can’t remember if Calvin tackled it. I don’t think he did. I could be wrong there. I don’t think Luke, I heard it. I’m one who buys sermons on logos to see oftentimes, how the pastor breaks it up, especially a guy older than me, and that’s becoming more rare to find him older than me. And I know crystal went through it, yeah, but there are you have to be pretty brave to go verse five, verse three, Revelation. There’s not many guys that do that, yeah. Well, let’s kind of delve into this. How does a person determine what his view is?
Jim Wicker 6:50
That’s good question. So there are certain key texts. I think if you go to those texts, it can help you see what your interpretive understanding of Revelation is. And there’s a handout that’ll be posted throughout this webinar, and then in the follow up, it’ll also be given out that gives the four main views of how to interpret revelation, and then the three main millennial views. So I’d recommend starting at Revelation 20 verses one through seven, where it mentions 1000 years, 1000 years, 1000 years. And then decide, okay, do you believe that’s a literal 1000 years? And if you do, then you’re, you’d be a pre millennial. Have the pre millennial view, which means there’s a future, literal 1000 years. However, if you think, well, that’s a period, and I’m not sure that it’s literal, and maybe we’re going through that right now, then you’d be a post millennialist, which says we’re going through this general period. And I’ll give more details later. But then, if you go now, that’s just a symbol. It’s not even really a period, it’s just revelations full of symbols, and so that’s just another symbol. Then you’d be an amillennial millennialist, which means no Millennium from the Alpha privative in the Greek, just meaning on. Then go to Revelation chapter 12, in the first few verses, it talks about the woman that’s going to bear a child, and then the dragon is fighting against the child or trying to kill the child. Well, most of us agree the dragon is Satan, because then later John says the dragon is the serpent. Who’s the Devil and Satan? So that’s pretty clear, but who’s the woman and the child? So if you think that the woman is the church, then you’re more likely a, what we call a historical pre millennialist Or a an idealist, which those have more of an emphasis on the church. And of course, most of us agree we’re in the Church Age today, which is from the ascension of Jesus to his return, in other words, the time of the church. So is the emphasis there that that the church brought forth the child and she’s the woman, or is the woman Israel? So those of us that believe it’s that’s the woman is Israel, then we’re what we call a dispensational pre millennialist, which has more of an emphasis on Israel, and then takes the dispensational pre millennialist takes more of the events or people or things that are mentioned as literal, where a historical pre millennialist will say more that’s symbolic. And so we’ll kind of differ over the issue of Israel, but that’s a key text as well.
Scott Maze 9:35
So let me kind of review, because that was there was a lot of information there. So when identifying what view I might be, I might, I would probably go to Revelation 20 and look at the millennium and the revelation 12, the early part, and my view regarding the woman. We all, as you said, indicate that the serpent is Satan. And then you begin to kind of lay out the main interpretive view. So. I heard you say dispensational, pre historical, pre amillennial and post millennial. There’s not that many post Millennials around anymore. The founder of our institution of southwestern I believe, was one yes, and my understanding is post Millennials have decreased because of the prevalence of War World War One, World War Two. It’s difficult to have a post millennial view that things are getting better. We’re riding into the millennium with the Hitlers and the IDI amines. And it’s just, it’s just hard to find that view. Yes, so let me put you on the spot. Which which of those views have you identified with?
Jim Wicker 10:41
So I grew up under the preaching of Dr Criswell at First Baptist Dallas, and he was a dispensational, pre millennialist, and that was back in the days of Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth and things like that, which I’ll say that’s one version of it, but that’s not what we go to for what the view says. But having then, since then, examined the different viewpoints through the years, going to college and coming here to seminary, I haven’t found another view that I found to be more persuasive at the same time, I’ll say, want to mention why. You know, a lot of preachers don’t want to preach through Revelation, and they may have a different interpretive view than their congregation, and that’s I understand that hesitancy, yeah, so maybe to add in that question as well, or that dilemma, then I think the key is to help your people To understand there are various potential views that are still within the conservative interpretation of the Bible, and even though your view may be different, there’s actually a lot of points of commonality that you can make between your view and the view in your congregation.
Jim Wicker 11:57
But I think another key is to be respectful of that other view. Now what I hear at various places is from people that have different views. They make fun of the other views. Now among colleagues, we can do that, but actually, when we’re preaching and teaching, we want to be very respectful of those views, and yet find points of commonality. And where I find point a lot of points of commonality, is the Trinity. I mean, Revelation is more clear about the Trinity than any other New Testament book except probably first John. There’s much about the Trinity. There’s much about sin and judgment. Now, we may disagree on our millennial views exactly when certain events happen, but God judges sin, and we see a lot about persecution, and even made disagree about who’s being persecuted, when at the same time we can agree. Persecution of the church has been going on since the beginning, and there’s a message for people in God’s day, in John’s day, from God that people are Christians are being persecuted, and they’re being persecuted today, and will be till the Lord comes back. And so there’s many themes that you can connect with in every chapter, regardless of your view. So I think, as you preach through it with a if you know your view is different from your congregation, which I know, a lot of the people in the pew, so to speak, are that they’ve been influenced by dispensational pre millennialism. As you keep that in mind, even if you disagree with it, and just from time to time, mention, well, you know, this other view sees it this way, but, but connect with those points of commonality.
Scott Maze 13:35
I think that’s very important. Yeah, I think it is. And I we just remind all of us that the Baptist faith message 2000 was written to to include numerous different views within the eschatology. When you go there, it does not preclude amillennial. Does not preclude post or pre So, and it’s written purposefully there. And I appreciated your views there regarding that, because I have been the historical I’m a historical pre and I am in the minority within most churches I’ve pastored, most of the guys in the ladies in our churches have believed the rapture, even if they can’t fully form why they believe that this? They were taught that. I was taught that so anecdotally, you’re talking about the aspect there. Years ago, I was pastoring in West Texas, in the panhandle, and it was, I think I told you, just maybe a week or so back, 500 people on the same night, I’m being questioned. I’m 31 years of age. I had not written the dissertation, but I’d gone through the PhD seminars, and the lady that was the Bible expert was questioning my views on the end times, because I did not believe in in free will, dispensational rapture, and I could tell that we were losing everybody else in the room. And so I sort of pivoted and I said, if you’ve heard of Spurgeon my view is Charles spurgeons. And she said, No, it’s not well. It made me. So angry. Dr wicker, but I couldn’t show it then, because they hadn’t voted on me as of yet. And I went back to Southwestern that week, looked it up, and I was right, but I never got to tell him I was right, I think.
Speaker 1 15:12
Yeah well let me I’ll tell you a funny story about Dr Criswell. So when Dr Criswell came to First Baptist Dallas, Dr Truett had preached there almost 50 years as a post millennialist, but he was a product of his generation. As you said, most people since the great missionary times in the 17 to 1800s were thinking, the world’s getting better and better and better. It will usher in the return of Christ at the proper time. And so that’s what Dr Truett preached. So Dr Criswell got there, who’s a dispensational pre millennialist, and the little old, sweet lady that came up to him after the service and said, Well, Dr Truett was not a pre millennialist. And Dr Criswell answered her without skipping a beat. Well, he is now. Now that’s a funny anecdote, but the point is, I think we all need to have humility in that and understand that. One day, we’ll find out there’s a, probably not a good Baptist phrase, but I know when Doctor Patterson taught the course on Revelation, he’d say from time to time, well, here’s these different options. You pay your money and make your choice, so we don’t bet as as Baptist. But here’s, there’s even, even within your view, that you have or say, I’m dispensational pre, and you’re a historical pre. There are still times we come to certain texts, you know, we’re just not sure. You know, the Babylon in 17 and 18. I find that to be the hardest text to tackle. And so it just, I say, you know, I’m not sure. So you make a choice and realize with humility, I may be wrong in that.
Scott Maze 16:48
Preterism is, would you put that within orthodoxy, or would you say that’s outside of Orthodox parameters? And what is Preterism?
Jim Wicker 16:58
Yeah, so Preterism is a belief that this all John was writing two first century recipients about first century events. It still says it’s prophecy. In fact. I mean, not every preterist agrees, and not everyone, any, any of the views, agrees with the rest of people in that view. But it says that John wrote in the mid 60s about the coming judgment on Jerusalem that was going to happen in just a few years. I mean, 67, to 70. And so that’s not a necessarily wrong view. And the fact that God did bring that judgment, Jesus taught that God’s going to judge Jerusalem. So in the Olivet Discourse, he talked, I believe, about the coming judgment 40 years later, though, Jerusalem, and then the second coming. So a preterist that says, hey, I believe most this is first century about the fall of Jerusalem and God’s judgment on Jerusalem, which he did, and I believe Jesus is coming back then, I’d say that’s within orthodoxy.
Jim Wicker 17:58
Now, theologians disagree about some of the history of this, but I do think the earliest Christians were pre millennial. They looked at the text 1000 years, okay, 1000 years wide. Doubt that. But then time went by and they were still expecting. I mean, they they thought Jesus would come in their lifetime, and he didn’t. So as the several centuries went by, then they started to go into other views. So there again, predatorisms had its day, and it was a lot more popular earlier. And then another, another view I haven’t mentioned is historicist. And Historicist, that view which you mentioned, Calvin and Luther and all those guys were historicists, which means they thought that the the beast was the Roman Catholic Church, and all of these judgments were on the Roman Catholic Church. So you see, that had its heyday all the way up to and then, especially in the Reformation. And then there’s, there’s still some historicists, but not very many, you know. And there’s idealists that put it back in the judgment on Jerusalem, though some of them didn’t say the rest of it’s God’s judgment on Roman 476, but there’s not very many now, an idealist that would say it’s all for a century, and Jesus came back at that point in judgment, I’d say that’s not within orthodoxy.
Scott Maze 19:19
Preterist, you correct me if I’m wrong, but I think RC Sproul’s book, about 20 years ago, something the effect of Jesus, according to the last days, would be a fairly mainstream view of Preterism, if, if viewers are wanting to kind of get a hold of that view, but mainly American evangelicals, post, pre and amillennial And so those are, those are some of the more helpful ones. Yeah, I mentioned persecution. Anecdotally. I’m told that in places of persecution, of course, America’s, we’ve got the privilege of not being persecuted. But some of our viewers may be Southwestern grads spread throughout the globe. That revelation is cherished even more. Sure, yeah, when persecution ramps up,
Jim Wicker 20:04
Nina Shay wrote a book called in the lion’s den in the late 90s and 1990s I should say we’re talking about 1890s and 60s. So 1990s instead of copied everybody in Congress, and her data showed more Christians were persecuted in the 20th century. You know, through the end of the 1990s right then all previous 19 centuries combined. And as we’re now in the 21st century, that’s continued. So we’re, we’re continuing to see many, many persecutions. There’s about over there around 50 Muslim countries. In other words, they’re 50% or more majority Muslim. So yes, there are many persecutions. And it has, you know, for people to say, Oh, if you’re a futurist, then it didn’t have any application in the first century. That’s not true, because even though there’s persecutions in the future, it shows you how to deal with it right now.
Speaker 2 21:02
Yeah, and you brought up a great point there. We whenever the pastor, preacher teacher, is working through this book, it has to meant, have meant something to John’s original audience, yeah. So keep that in mind. He can’t it can’t all be Apache helicopters or whatever we come up with. It has to be something there, right? So bunch of pastors are on here, and just people who love to Bible study. I see one gentleman there in the top right corner. He’s got a great library. I see one of our guys on staff, Stewart pindel, was there. And so let’s talk about commentaries. Isn’t it true that you can never have enough books, and that right with it. When your spouse says enough, she’s wrong.
Jim Wicker 21:44
Well yeah, there’s a quote that, if you have enough, when you have money, buy books. If you have more money than that, buy food. So something like, but there’s a lot of commentaries.
Scott Maze 21:56
What are the best? What are the best ones on Revelation?
Jim Wicker 21:58
So in the in the handout that we’re posting, and also mail out I’ve given in the various interpretive views, some of the best commentaries in each view. Now, what I found very helpful in this English book on Revelation that I’m teaching. Then we’re there’s this book by Greg. It’s called four views of Revelation. It has four columns, and with every pass, every, let’s say, segment of text, what each view says. And I found that to be very helpful, even as much as I’ve studied revelation, to finally have a commentary where it’s side by side. Now, having said that even commentaries like so for dispensational pre millennialism, Dr Paige Patterson wrote the volume and revelation for the new American series. It is an excellent volume, but even when they’re advocating one view, which most commentators do, they’re going to mention the other views. So they it’s not that that you’re only going to see one view in that or there’s a two volume commentary by Thomas that’s excellent that goes into a lot more detail for dispensational pre millennialism, but for historical pre millennialism, Paul Hoskins, who is one of our graduates, and I mean, he taught here for many years as an excellent volume on Revelation that takes that viewpoint on historical pre millennialism, and a number of commentaries, the more recent ones that are pre millennial take that view even when even the last, let’s say, 50 years, like George Elden Ladd and ones like that.
Jim Wicker 23:35
Tom Schreiner, who’s just come out with the commentary in within the last year, but I have a review on it in our Southwestern Journal of theology.So to promote our Southwestern journal that’s coming out in the next issue. But he he’s historical, pre millennial, but also somewhat idealist. Which idealist says that pretty much everything in Revelation is a symbol, I mean, except for they’ll say, you know, Jesus is coming back. But other than that, it’s just showing that there’s these ongoing battles between God’s side and Satan’s side, and ultimately God is going to win. Except, of course, he’s already won the war at the cross, but he’s going to win ultimately, as Satan and all sinners will be judged. But Shriners is good also for historical pre as well as the idealist view. So again, I’m I list that with Greg’s forevite For view commentary. He then works with the major commentaries. It’s in the second edition. It’s very helpful. And I’ll say going through that I’m more appreciative of the idealist view and the historicist view to say, Well, I disagree with those interpretations of Revelation. They are correct in their citing these. Major events. Now, no doubt, the 8070, fall of Jerusalem in the temple was huge. So that’s major. The fall of the western empire in 476 is huge. And then idealist, you learn a lot of history reading that you because they’re going through all the church history saying, Well, this event is that, well, I say I disagree with that view. They’re right that that was a major event in church history, like when Charles Martel stopped the Muslims from continuing to push westward.
Scott Maze 25:30
And again, we’re going to ask our viewers in just a minute, you know, we’re going to take questions. And so if you want to drop those into the chat, or if you want to raise your hand in just a moment, I would add that, having taught on Wednesday night what was as a pastor, you can get in your study, and you can really get into all the commentaries, and then you know you’re going to walk out and talk to people who just work for a living. How did I bring the esoteric down? Jim Hamilton’s preach of the word, who happens to agree with my view, but his application was helpful, because at some point you go say, okay, so what? Yeah, I thought that was a good one. And then Sam storms, the DTS grad, the guy up in the pasture, up in an Oklahoma City area, he’s, I think, written, sort of the modern classic on all millennial views. So just a couple other great resources there, and I appreciate you doing that. Let me, let me ask you, so between classic dispensational and progressive dispensational, I know we, I believe we have Dr blasing on our faculty, and he is sort of the progressive what? What’s the, what’s the difference there,
Jim Wicker 26:37
Right, and also, Dr Jeff Bingham is progressive as well, okay, dispensationalism. So the difference with I used to say, for years, I believe in dispensational pre millennialism, for my interpretation of Revelation, but I’m not a dispensationalist. And so then I’d have to explain, Well, dispensationalist, which I’m not knocking dispensationalist, but it’s seven dispensations. And to me, it seemed too cut and dried. And the way I boy, I heard it was the god has to work this way, and this dispensation kind of, it seemed to me, he’s kind of locked into having to do that. Yeah. At the same time, I go back and say, you know, as you read the text, clearly, there’s a difference between before the fall and after the fall. There’s a difference before the flood and after the fall. What I mean is difference things happen differently that. You know, the age span drops down rapidly. And of course, the before the fall, it was certainly different than after the fall in the judgment on sin. But to give a shorter answer, with classic dispensationalism, well, both put an emphasis on Israel, and that separates classical and progressive dispensationalism from the other views. We look at Israel is, is a is still a key in like Hebrews 1126, that that, excuse me. Romans, 1126, that says, One day all Israel will be saved. We believe that that means one day in the future, many Jews will come to Christ.
Jim Wicker 28:11
Well, classic dispensationalism tended to say, Well, between Jesus work at the cross and the empty tomb and when he comes back, that’s a parenthesis or a gap. And, you know, using a term like a princess parenthesis or gap, it sounds like, well, so what are we chopped liver? You know, so progressive dispensationalism comes in and says, we still have that emphasis on Israel. But also this period that we’re in is important. So it’s not like a gap that was unexpected or whatever. Now the reason for that is the 70 weeks in Daniel and we believe that the 69th week led up to then Jesus coming and his work, and then the 70th week, we believe is great tribulation, the future. But this in between time the progressive puts more of an emphasis that this was purposeful. This was the time when God brings in Gentiles, which, of course, he prophesied in the Old Testament. He’s now bringing that to fruition. And then also part of that is Paul wrote in Romans nine through 11 is to make the Jews jealous and to bring them to the time of coming back to accept Christ. And I’ll throw in there. By the way, we’ve seen more Jews come to Christ in the last 10 to 20 years than we have in the history of the church since the first century. So something amazing is happening. I’m not saying that’s saying for sure that progressive dispensation, a little bit is the answer. It’s my preference. But I think we all have to agree, God’s up to something with something special, with many Jews coming to Christ, and also many Muslims coming to Christ. We’d not ever seen that since Mohammed started Islam, praise the Lord, the number of Muslims coming to Christ. It’s just amazing. It is amazing.
Scott Maze 29:56
We’re going to turn our attention here in just a second again to our questions. I. Think you gave me your least favorite passage, which was Revelation 17-18., yeah, so What? What? What’s your favorite passage of Revelation? You got one sermon. You know, you’re restricted to one sermon in Revelation. What’s that go to passage and why?
Jim Wicker 30:16
So, when I, whenever I ask for what’s your favorite Biblical person I always have to say, except for Jesus, because if you don’t say Jesus, you know something’s wrong. Yeah. So I would say, then my favorite passage would need to be revelation. 19, started in verse 11, when Jesus comes back, because that’s the hope we talked about all through the New Testament. What is hope? Hopes, normally the return of Christ. But if you say, Okay, that’s a given. You know, that’s the easy one. What’s another one? Then I’d go to the new heaven and new earth, because we might disagree on the millennium, yeah, but Revelation 21 and 22 this brings tears of my eye, yeah, when God will wipe away every tear from our eyes, there’ll be no sin, no more death. And you know, as preachers, and I’ve had many funerals, and we describe what it’s like for that Christian. You know, if it’s a Christian, you do in the funeral for to be absent from the bodies, be present with the Lord Second Corinthians, five, eight. And so I believe that new Heaven and new Earth part of that they’re experiencing right now in the heaven, yeah. And so we even jump forth to some of those passages. We see the face of God.
Scott Maze 31:30
What Moses wanted to see? Well, we got a question for West Graham. Wes wanted a quick reminder here, and I think this is going to be on the sheet that goes out. Thank you, Wes for joining with us. What commentary do you say? Has the multiple views shown side by side?
Jim Wicker 31:45
And I pick up my little handout to make sure you have the right now. It’s Steve Greg, called Revelation, four views by Thomas Nelson, and it was updated in 2013 now, now still that’s that’s 11 years out of date for the new commentaries. And like I say, the Tom Schreiner commentary is excellent that just came out, but it’s still very good on seeing the side by side, the different views, yeah.
Scott Maze 32:10
And I don’t know Wes, if you’re a Logos guy, I have in my 40s, switched sort of more to Logos, and I find some great sales. Always, money is a concern for pastors, and whether you’re buying out of your own personal budget or you’re buying out of church allows you allocate some money. But right now, there’s some great sales. Uh. Jay Mixon, Thank you, Jay, for joining with us. Should we be concerned about the April 8 lunar eclipse? I’m so glad you’re here to answer that, and not me.
Jim Wicker 32:48
Okay, wonderful question. My answer is 1000 times no. Should we be concerned about that? So I’m gonna go to Matthew 24:36 and Jesus is talking about the Second Coming. And, well, there’s different interpretations of what did Jesus talk about in the this Olivet Discourse? Most of us believe he’s talking about the at first, the part of it, the AD 70, fall of Jerusalem, then the second coming. Well, by 36 I think he’s, he’s in the Second Coming. And he said of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father, Father alone. Now, he said, day and hour, and so some go we can know the minute or or we can know the month. No, no. Jesus was saying by that no one knows, even he didn’t know. Now, I think Jesus knows now, because I think once he ascended to heaven, then what he did that he he, if he set aside any of us of his privileges of being God, then He knows now, but we don’t know. So here’s what I tell my students, and I told my churches, if anyone says I know Jesus is coming back, like at the 40th anniversary of Israel becoming a nation, or then in a few more years, the the, well, you know, the 80th, these multiples of 40 or whatever, that he’s not. When people are saying he’s coming back, then he’s not. So I’m say, enjoy the Eclipse, and don’t be thinking, okay, that’s the event, because there’s a lot of and I also encourage people, please don’t watch these YouTube and Tiktok videos of people saying, here’s all the reasons why. Like, my daughter was telling me, so I’m like, Oh, it goes across Bethlehem, Texas is in the path go. You know, in Texas, we have a name of every city you can imagine. So that’s it’s meaningless.
Scott Maze 34:41
We’re going to go back in a second. But one thing I’d add there, when I was a college student, a respected preacher used the 1988 the 40 year thing, and he is solid in every direction. But I remembered that, and I would say to all our pastors out there, there are young people. Bull, or whomever, aged people out there, and they’re paying attention. And I think one of the things that maybe the generation, you know, younger than me, there’s less and less dispensational pre millennials. Molar had a podcast on that. I think one of it’s the reaction to the date Seth, yeah. And we need a humility when we walk in the pulpit. Yeah.
Jim Wicker 35:24
I’d like to just say one more thing about date setting. Even if you’re totally, completely convinced about a certain date, I encourage you, please keep it to yourself, because no one’s going to know. And as Dr Maze is saying, it really does a disservice to the Bible, to Christianity. When, when someone sets a date because a non Christian doesn’t know, they’ll think, well, everybody must think that, and then the date comes and goes, and it really hurts our credibility. So, I mean, we can say even I wouldn’t even say I think he’s going to then I just say just, you know, I can say I think he’s coming soon, but I don’t say he is coming like tomorrow or whatever, because it could be another 1000 years. So the show humility, but again day setting, it does a disservice. The Jehovah’s Witnesses set, I think, seven different times the date, and it came and went, and then a pastor’s back in 2011 was his, his fourth time to do it. He took billboards out all over the country. Newspaper ads there was Harold Camping, yeah, he needed recanted in 2012 uh, he said he wished he hadn’t done that, and then died the next year. But, yeah, I wish he hadn’t done that, because it really it turns people off to Christianity or to even looking at Revelation. Well, as far as how deep to go, I think it all depends on how much time you have. I mean, you can do a one teaching session or one sermon and cover the whole book. So I would, I would let your time factor be the determination, if it’s but the also who you’re speaking to, if it’s a bunch of new Christians. I wouldn’t go into a long, deep, detailed study, because they’re needing to kind of wade into the waters of revelation and other books. So your time factor, and then who your audit, your your congregation or audience is, I think, would be the determining factor.
Scott Maze 37:34
And I’d add there, you know, Tim Keller’s new book on preaching, he talks about the mobility of our society, and people are moving a lot. I’m pastor here in Fort Worth, and you may have people a total of three years. So in those three years, do I want to be preaching revelation for half of it? Yeah, another thing that could help there, you mentioned commentaries, but going and getting pastors sermons might help the depth of it. Watching the two, I can think of Dr Cruz, well, and then Hamilton, I’m sure there are other sermons out there. I’m just not aware of the top of my head, but that that helps me go, Okay, there’s a guy that’s done this, yeah. And what? What should I look like in that regard? I think we got one other question here from Joe Manning, when and how will you send out the notes, the list and commentaries? I think that’s going to be in the notes at the conclusion here, we’re going to email those out. Becca, you want to add anything to that? All right, so Roy asked the question that I that I’m looking forward to Dr wicker, and you’ve been to Israel numerous times. I’m about to go my fifth time next year. So regarding recent events for in Israel and Gaza, particularly the potential expansion. So I’m assuming there may be the expansion of Israel. Any thoughts there, how does revelation connect to that?
Speaker 1 38:58
So the concern now is, I mean in Gaza, and of course, that’s a terrible situation, and we need to pray for people on both sides. The concern not only about that, and everybody wants peace to come. At the same time Israel has the right to defend itself, there’s a concern from the north, because Hezbollah has been shelling from the north, and they have more effective weapons, and there’s a very good possibility that could result in something that would be a wider conflagration. So there is the possibility this could be the start of World War Three. I mean, because Hezbollah, then that would bring in Iran and in Russia, in anyway. So is that? Does that mean World War Three is about to start? Does that mean that we’re seeing the end of Revelation right now? And my response to that is, no one knows. So I would say certainly don’t be concerned that you think, Okay, this is the beginning of. The end, at the same time, we don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow. So could that you can go into a wider conflict. It could, but our prayer should always be for God to bring peace, and the Bible says to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and so to be praying for peace to come there. But again, could it be something major? Well, you know, every I mean, both world wars started from a little, small event. So there’s always that potential. So we should be praying for peace and and I think, on the one hand, make your plans, your one year plan, five year plan, 10 year plan, 20 year plan for you and your church, but on the other hand, realize that we we don’t know how much time we have left.
Scott Maze 40:46
So we’re going to get to a question about Revelation 14. But I would like to add not so much revelation and Bible. But of the last century or so, the Palestinians, especially in Bethlehem, have been much more responsive to Christianity than the Jewish people have Yes. So will we take a one sided view? And American evangelicals are typically pro Israel. We need to be careful there, because we want to continue to reach both people for the Lord Jesus Christ, right? And I think another aspect, because I sort of review it, and I’m no expert, but as our nation interacts with the Israeli government. What would we want have someone said to us having been attacked in Pearl Harbor? What were we going to do? How are we going to deal with ISIS more contemporary, or Afghanistan? So I think we’ve got to show great care. We pray for peace. Yeah, but terrorists are terrorists, and we, we need to be thinking about that at some level within the government. And so I appreciate your comments. Let’s go to Revelation 14, because I’m so glad you’re here to take these easy questions, the 144,000 revelation 14, one five. You got the 144,000 redeemed people from the earth. Can you talk about that you mentioned a moment ago, our friends the Jehovah’s Witness, and I think they kind of messed that one up.
Jim Wicker 42:06
Yeah, they, they got it wrong. The job was witnesses, and they got a lot of things wrong because they’re not, they’re not Christian, for sure, and we know that because they don’t believe Jesus is God, modern day Arians, yeah. So the under 44,000 which also is mentioned in Revelation seven, the dispensational pre millennial. And when I say that, I mean both that and the progressive dispensational pre millennial. We take that as literal by 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. And in the future, so the dispensational view will look at more of these events as literal than any of the other views. So we believe that’s in the future, after the rapture, that many Jews will turn to Christ, such as every guide I’ve had to Israel, except for one year in my like 15 trips, they’ve been a Israeli Jew and Jewish by faith, but we share the gospel, and I think once that happens, many Jews will go, Well, I guess they were right, and they placed their faith in Jesus, and we think these are Jewish Christian evangelists in the future.
Jim Wicker 43:15
Now, other views then say no, what this is talking about is not literal, but symbolically these these Christians that are on fire for Jesus and sharing the gospel with others even now. So they’d say it like this, 12 is a biblical number. God uses 12 disciples based on the 12 tribes of Israel. And so 12 number. God uses 12 times 12 and then 1000 God uses periods of 1000 as well. So they’d say those were symbolic numbers for followers of Jesus throughout this church age. So that your interpretation of that would depend upon Do you believe these three sets of seven judgments, the seven seals. So starting in chapter six, seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bows. Are they one after the other? Do they overlap some? Do they overlap? A lot? And are they literal or symbolic. So I’ll tend to take those literal his and in the future, historical pre millennials will take them, typically symbolic, but toward the end of the seals as literal, and these cataclysmic signs before the return of Christ. And so then, by the way, if you interpret it literal or symbolic, then would then help you understand whether you think, are we going through some of that right now or not, and are those 144,000 literal? If they’re literal, I think the literalist interpretation would be in the future, and that’s the view I have. But the symbolic would be that would be either now. Or through history, God has used special people to share the gospel. Not every Christian is supposed to, but not everybody has the gift of evangelism.
Scott Maze 45:09
Yeah, we’re all supposed to evangelism, even if we have the gift of none. That’s right. Do you teach a elective on Revelation? If not you? Who does teach that? How often does that come if a student, someone here wants to jump in on that class in the future.
Jim Wicker 45:21
Yeah, so I’m teaching it, right. I’m teaching it right now. Dr Hoskins taught it the time before, and I probably teach it in another two years. We’re teaching it this and it’s, it’s a English based book. So we teach both English based, New Testament books are Greek based. And so, you know, we go through the Greek text, if it’s a Greek based course, which you’ll need to go through the Greek courses to get the basics in before that, or English based, anyone can jump into it. And so we’ll probably do the English based in another let’s say two years.
Scott Maze 45:52
Let’s say theoretically, I’m sure this doesn’t happen to a southwestern alum. Let’s just say theoretically, they’ve not kept up their languages and they want to jump in on that Greek course. What would you say to them?
Jim Wicker 46:07
I would say, if you want to brush up on your Greek there’s some good books on that, that zondervans published, other words up on it. Now, if I want to take a Greek course at it, you need to brush up on your grit. If I can’t conjugate blue owl, you had the drop of a hat at two o’clock in the morning. Here’s the thing you mentioned, logos, Bible study software. Logos in accordance. And I’d add Bible works, but they’re now no longer in business, but I’m telling you, and by the way, earlier, I know some people don’t have a sense of humor, so I wasn’t saying, don’t buy money for food. Do buy money for food, but buy the books, but electronically. You know, I had to admit, if you don’t know Greek and Hebrew, you can still go very far with logos and accordance. And so you have your English text in front of you with one little click of the cursor. You know their mouth. It gives you the Hebrew Greek, depending on if you’re in the Old Testament or New it’ll conjugate it. It’ll tell you what the meaning possibilities are. Another just one click every verse, that other verse that has that so you can go very far with that.
Scott Maze 47:20
Praise the Lord for the right click. That’s right got a question from Wes Griff. He wants to know, at what point does the marriage supper of the Lamb occur? And then he’s asking, If you contrast that between historical pre and pre millennial?
Jim Wicker 47:34
Yeah, so the pre millennial is the only view that says there’s a literal millennium. So with i and the post, your I says, No, so I says, No, Millennium, Jesus is just coming back. And so with that, you know, if they take that literally, I don’t know that a millennialist necessarily would, but if they take it literally, they say, well, that’s when Jesus comes back. Then a post millennial would say, well, there’s not a certain length of period, but we’re in that now and then Jesus is going to come back. And they put it then, now the pre millennial then that we say, yes, he’s coming back, both historical and dispensational. Yes, he’s coming back. There will be 1000 year millilitium, though some pre millennial don’t say it’s 1000 they’ll say it’s a period of time, maybe a little less, little more, then the Great White Throne Judgment. So the mayor suffered the lamb. That’s a good question.
Jim Wicker 48:34
I don’t think that there’s any set spot, even in pre millennialism, as to when it is. So for instance, with my view that there’s a seven year Great Tribulation, there’ll be the rapture, then the seven year Great Tribulation, which, again, this the dispensation will pre millennial, we think at some time during the Great Tribulation. But even then, we don’t know when. Now, in Revelation, in night John 19, it mentions it right before the return of Christ. And so then you look at it and say, Well, that’s easy right before the return of Christ, with those that are with Christ. And yet, this is the the challenge of Revelation. And I’m glad, because I haven’t said this yet. Revelation is not all chronological. And so that’s that’s very important to understand, that it’s not in John. You know John, I believe, wrote Revelation. John wrote the Gospel of John. John wrote the three epistles of John. And John likes to do what we call proleptic and then he’ll mention something. He’ll mention Mary in John, and say, Now that’s the Mary that anointed Jesus. He’ll jump to that event that hasn’t happened yet, or then sometimes they’ll mention something. It’s a flashback. So proleptic, if you’re not familiar with that word, just ain’t flash forward. Flashback, a word Schreiner likes to use in his commentary a lot, is recapitulation. So what he’s saying is, well, here John’s going back over that like in 17 and Babylon. In judgment in 18, he’ll recapitulate and go back. So the point is mentioning that before the return of Christ, is John mentioned. It’s there, but it’s really a flashback, because, you know, in Revelation 12, I think he flashes back to the fall of Satan.
Jim Wicker 50:15
So it can be at the beginning of the the millennium. It could be during the Millennium. It could be at the end of it, it could and that would be a flash forward. Or it could be right before the return of Christ, with those believers that are in heaven. Because I do believe that again, to be absent from the bodies, be present with the Lord and every believer that dies, whether Old Testament, say those who had the faith of Abraham, Genesis, 15, six, or a Christian or with the Lord now. So my final answer is, I’ve got an idea when I think it is, but I don’t know that we can we I certainly think we shouldn’t be dogmatic on that. That’s kind of like the judgment first, Corinthians, 10, three through 15. The judgment for Christians of what will be rewarded or not, when is that? Well, you know, we’re not, we’re not sure, really.
Scott Maze 51:04
And I would add that if you start saying the words recap, recapitulation and prolepsis in your sermons, yeah, get empower the pastor’s wife to be able to tell you it’s sweetheart. Would you just keep it simple? And would you, would you leave? We all know you’re smart, but just, just preach Texan or wherever you’re Oklahoma or whatever.
Scott Maze 51:25
l right, so brother Litchfield here. This is a great question. I’ve never heard this one, so I’ve heard Brother Lichfield says that Jesus reference and on Windows the day hour could reference the feast of trumpets that that hid that that is the second coming. Could therefore coincide with the fall festivals as his coming coincide with the spring festivals. Have you heard something similar?
Jim Wicker 51:50
Yeah. I mean, there are, there’s a million views about that’s my ex. I’m a Texan, by the way, so I do. I exaggerate. It comes naturally. But there are many views about when he’s coming back, and could it be tied to this feast or festival? And admittedly, as you look at the history of Israel, a lot has happened on their feast and festival days, because their enemies know that’s when they’ll be worshiping and not ready for an attack. But that doesn’t mean Jesus is coming back at that time. So I would say that. I mean, I’ve heard that view. I’ve heard many that claim he’s coming back at this feast or festival in this certain year. But the problem is, excuse me, that gets back to date setting. So I just take it. I just tell people, Look, I’m simple minded, and let’s keep it simple. And I think Jesus was just saying, no one’s going to know. And to try to then say, oh, but he’s talking about this feast. You can know when he’s coming back. You just don’t know when that feast is, or something like that.
Scott Maze 52:54
I think that , without datasetting, you could also, you know, add that as a piece of commentary as you’re teaching that, you know, this is a theory, and you can look for this.
Jim Wicker 53:06
Sure? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as far as telling people there are those that think it might be tied to a feast or festival, and I think that’s fine with saying, could it be? Maybe it could be, but to say it definitely is…
Scott Maze 53:18
I love, I love Mark’s question. It’s the last one here, because I’ve got a guy in my congregation who’s I’ve been there 12 years. He’s been writing a prophecy book the whole 12 years. So we always have these guys in our churches. Mark says, I encounter people who are distracted by the book of Revelation. Mark, I hear you. They catch you before and after service. When guests are there, they just they take 2030, minutes on their view. How do you redirect those conversations and where do you redirect them? Great question, good.
Jim Wicker 53:48
So I think they’re going overboard on Revelation. One, three Blessed is the one who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and heed the things which are written in it. So I’ll mention that first of pastors that shy away from that, then I encourage you to do it, to preach and teach through it, and help your people have that blessing that God says and interesting those who hear because until the printing press, most of the way people got God’s word was they heard it because they couldn’t afford to buy a copy of the Bible. But then also help your people to learn balance. At any time, if you get you can be doing something good, but if it’s to the the omission of something else that’s good, then you’re out of balance. So I think, and help them to understand a proper interpretation of revelation should make you a better witness for Christ and a more godly person, because what we sometimes don’t talk about in Revelation are the passages that talk about godliness versus ungodliness, and so then it should lead us to live a more godly life that tends balance. Is balanced by reading the entire Word of God and doing what it says and sharing with others. So somebody locked up in their study every. Day studying revelation. They’re not doing what the Word of God says to do.
Scott Maze 55:04
Mark, great question. Dr wicker, thank you, and I would add mark to that. When my hair turned gray and I got a doctorate, my church thought I was smarter than I was, but depends on how long you’ve been there, what what your respect is in the congregation, if you’re someone like myself, I can put my arm around them, and I have a comical way of just saying, You know what, I’m so glad you’re here and you teach me these things, and I’m so glad you could be wrong. And now let’s, let’s go get a donut, or let’s go do something together. Yeah? Well, Dr wicker, thank you for helping us today. You’ve been a great blessing. I’m told, back in the day, prior to being a professor. You were a comedian, yeah, and you do a little acting in your classes. And so I know there’s been some questions about alumni auditing, and maybe they’ll jump in with you. And maybe at that point, when we pay money, you can give us your best revelation joke and can act out the four horsemen or whatever you might do. But in all seriousness, thank you for teaching here for a number of years. You came when I was doing my doctoral studies with Dr fish and so thank you. And thank you for today, your tremendous blessing to us at Southwestern and thank you for being faithful to the Lord.
Jim Wicker 56:11
You’re welcome. And thank you for your serving the Lord and the pastorate and for being part of this today, I really appreciate it.
