In a time when the ministry landscape is rapidly becoming more complex, how do you press on with endurance? How do you protect your times of rest and recovery? How do you recover when weariness sets in? During this episode, Dr. Chris Osborne and John Hall discuss strategies for persevering in ministry.
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
John Hall 0:00
Well, good afternoon. Dr Osborne!
Chris Osborne 0:01
Roll tide forever!
John Hall 0:06
So my name is John Hall, for our fans out there, and I had the opportunity to meet Dr Osborne in person at Cousins Barbecue! We had a wonderful barbecue sandwich, some good conversation. And out of that, had the opportunity to have you preach at our church. I pastor Field Street Baptist Church, have been there for 21 years, and you came and preached in my absence during a sabbatical leave of mine last summer. And then we had you back subsequently to preach at our senior adult revival. You did a wonderful job.
Chris Osborne 0:41
Oh great church. […] Matter of fact, after I preachee, people came up to me and said, We’re so looking forward to John being back! [Laughter]
John Hall 0:51
That is not what they said! I was fortunate they welcomed me back. But I know you served Central Baptist Church in the Bryan College Station area for 33 years, and that speaks very highly of you and your skills.
Chris Osborne 1:10
Minister to Aggies for 33 years! Yeah, that’s a God call, right there!
John Hall 1:16
Yeah, is. Well, I’m sure you have a lot that you could share with us about the reality of burnout or potential burnout. In fact, I can’t wait to hear what you had to say about burnout and some of the realities that that lurk around the shadows for ministers, so lay it on us. Share your Osbornian wisdom!
Chris Osborne 1:42
Most of you guys are going to hate this, so I’m just going to lay this out. So don’t shoot me till I’m done. I think most burnout–and again, don’t shoot me–but most burnout is a result of rebellion in our life. For example, nearly every guy I’ve ever talked to that said he was in near burnout. My first question would be, Okay, do you take a sabbatical? And nearly every guy would look at me and go, Well, I know I should… I know that’s what the Bible says I should do… No, that’s not what the Bible says you should do, the Bible demands you do that. I mean, the Bible is very clear. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. It was created before we sinned, so if we needed it when we were perfect, you gotta assume we need it when we’re imperfect. So, when you look at God and he tells you to take a day and you don’t– And let’s be clear, we’re pastors, so we don’t get Sundays. That’s not our Sabbath. Saturday’s not our Sabbath because we’re getting ready for Sunday. So we don’t really get a Sabbath. You have to create your own Sabbath, which I think the Bible gives you great leeway for. When Jesus said, You know, Sabbath is for you, so it’s [for] our benefit. So for example, for me in my life, I took not one day, but two afternoons. It fit my rhythm better. I took a Tuesday afternoon and a Saturday afternoon. And I think on the Sabbath, you’ve got to do something (I’m not being funny here), you’ve got to do something that totally takes your mind off your job. Which is really the point of the Sabbath, to get away from work. I play golf because the game is so frustrating to me that I don’t care about my church anymore. I’m so mad at the golf game. Or I hunt! And I’m looking for something to kill so I have to do something that just moves me away. So I think you’ve got to have a Sabbath.
Chris Osborne 3:47
I think secondly, and I’m not trying to be overly spiritual here, but I think you’ve got to have a personal walk with Christ. I think if the only time you read the Bible is to get a sermon, you’re going to be in trouble. I think you’ve gotta get up–and I don’t care when you do it, you don’t have to do in the morning–but at some point during the day, you’ve gotta open your Bible, and I think read it until you hear God’s voice in your soul. That’s the best way I know to say it. If you can daily create that, as you spend time with the Father, I think [it] can impact you spiritually.
Chris Osborne 4:22
And then I think you gotta take care of yourself physically. I think… the Bible says your body’s a temple of the Holy Spirit. I think you’ve gotta watch your gluttony, you’ve gotta watch your your intake of calories, you’ve gotta do all that stuff. But the other thing is, and I want to be real clear here, I don’t think you chase what God doesn’t want you chasing. Which, for most of us as pastors, we’re chasing numbers. And the Bible never says to chase numbers. It says to chase disciples. Matter of fact, in John 6, Jesus had literally 15,000 people following him. In John 3, he makes the invitation to Nicodemus, you need to be born again. That’s not offensive? John 4, he makes an invitation [to] the woman at the well, Wou need to drink from me and don’t ever thirst again. That’s not offensive? But in John 6, when he’s speaking to a massive crowd, he says in several verses, You have to eat my flesh and drink my blood. Which people today, preachers today, are not going to preach! We’re embarrassed about that phraseology. And it ran off 15,000 people! [He] wound up with just the 12. But he was chasing disciples. And you see the “disciple” definition in Peter, when Jesus says, Are you guys going to leave too? And Peter said, literally in the Greek, We have come to understand, and now we know correctly, you’re the Holy One of God. So what Jesus was chasing was people who were so sure of who he was that they would do anything he said to believe or anything he said to do. So, we’re chasing disciples. That’s the goal in your ministry. And if you chase numbers, it’s going to beat you up. You’re going to go to the Father and say, Oh God, I’m tired. I’m burned out. Yeah, but God’s not going to honor your request, because you’re chasing what he doesn’t want you to chase. Don’t chase numbers. We chase disciples.
Chris Osborne 6:19
So I think those are at least four things that, for me, altered my life. So I think those are four keys. And to be honest, all four, if you disobey them, they’re rebellion, they’re not struggles. And I get how hard pastoring is. Man, I pastored for 43 years, 33 at A&M. And I mean, it’s, it’s exhausting, I totally get that. So I think God’s already planted particularly four things that we can do that helps us manage the exhaustion of Pastor. So that’s free for those of you that tithe.
John Hall 7:00
Yes. So I would jump on that and really echo what you said about having a Sabbath day. For me, my day off is Friday, yeah, and I religiously take Friday. I need a day where I completely unplug from anything related to the church. Oh yeah, my family likes me better, people like me better when I’ve had a day of just unplugging. So I think there’s some real wisdom in identifying a day that really works with your schedule. And as you commented on your rhythms, knowing those and pulling away from the church– because by Saturday morning, I’m already thinking about Sunday Sabbath. Saturday won’t be a Sabbath. And then, as you said, Sunday is not a Sabbath at all. No, it’s a grind, kind of a work day.
John Hall 7:55
The only thing I would add is, for me, we were very intentional about our family vacations. And we couldn’t always afford a really nice, elaborate vacation, but that didn’t stop us from planning and taking intentional time off as a family. And so […] what we did was, we determined what we wanted to do, where we wanted to go, what it might cost us, and we divide that by 12, and that’s what we’d save every month. It’s great! When we went on vacation, we could actually enjoy it, not worry about what was going to cost us. And then when we got home, we didn’t have buyer’s remorse that we went on vacation. kicking ourselves like, Why did we do that to ourselves financially? And what I found was our vacation as a family really kind of re-galvanized our family, and brought us back together. Because ministry is demanding in different ways on our spouses and our children than it is on us, but it’s no less demanding. So it was a real benefit to take a vacation and really be protective of that time away. In my case–I don’t know how it was for you–but our church has been really good at allowing me to go on vacation and not bother me about a hangnail or, you know, silly things. Something major, of course, I want to know, and have the opportunity to respond, if appropriate.
Chris Osborne 9:26
I would agree. Really, John, I think your kids don’t remember what gift you gave them. They remember all the times you had with them. Yes, I remember we went one year, as a family, we were at Yellowstone. And my wife is one of these people that wants to make everything just memorable. So we’re standing by Old Faithful. And my wife goes, I wonder what the Indians first thought when they saw Old Faithful? So for the rest of the trip, man, we’re driving down the road, my son would go, Hey, Mom, what do you think the Indians thought when they first saw the golden arches of McDonald’s? So I mean, we wore– we still, to this day, wear my poor wife out with that! So I think you’re exactly right. There’s just a galvanizing of family cohesion that’s powerful.
John Hall 10:19
What do you, in your opinion and your from your perspective, what were some of the things that you saw creeping into your ministry and life, that that you were proactive about going on the defense to prevent getting in a mode where you could potentially feel a kind of a burnout?
Chris Osborne 10:43
Yeah, I when I found myself getting this is kind of my warning sign: When I found myself not liking my church, I thought, okay, you’re in trouble here. So I would back up, take a little more time off until I was okay with someone calling me with, like, a hangnail or something. And you love your people, but when I found myself kind of not being disposed to them, well, that’s when I backed up.
John Hall 11:14
That’s interesting. I think that’s important to to recognize.
Chris Osborne 11:19
Yeah, nobody’s going to like your people. No, they are sheep. They are sheep. And at times you just, you know, you just don’t feel good. And that was my warning sign. Okay, you’re fixing to get into bad problems.
John Hall 11:32
So, if you could go back and talk with your younger self, is there any counsel you would give your younger self?
Chris Osborne 11:38
No, we don’t have time for that! We can’t fix my younger self! No, we’re, we’re having trouble fixing my older self at this point. No, I, think it helped me– Criswell was my hero. Never met him, he was my hero. But he’s the one that came up with A Day in Thirds. Now, his was radical, but I told my staff, and I did it myself. I had my mornings for Christ, my afternoons for the church, and my evenings for my family, and I made my staff keep that sacrosanct. If my youth guy had a night where he had to be off somewhere, then I wanted him–either the morning or the afternoon–with his family on the next day. Yeah, so we didn’t run hard office hours, because I think that’s unwise in the ministry, because the schedules are so varied. So for me, I had helped me early on to do that. It kept my spiritual life better. It kept a limit to my time with the church, and made sure my family was active in my life.
John Hall 11:38
What would you say, when you look back on the 33 years at Central, what were those actions you took that…What was it in ministry that really filled your cup versus that which drains you dry?
Chris Osborne 12:58
What filled my cup? Oh, a couple things. Number one, when I would say, Alright, turn to John 3, and I’d hear pages turning. Yeah, that was just a neat sound, right? I’ve got, we had several 100 Aggies mixed i n with our young couples, and they’ve got their Bibles open and they’re taking notes. So now I’ve gotta go, Okay, I can’t just say anything here. I actually have to know what I’m talking about. So that was fun. Yeah, I enjoyed, I know it’s going to sound crazy, but I enjoyed funerals, because I felt like it was deep, rich ministry in their life. They’re at the worst point in their life, and I can step in there and help them through that. I that was just rich for me. I loved counseling. If it was beneficial, if I just had someone to come in and they wanted to talk for an hour after lunch, I’m having to think of everything I can to stay awake that was, that was a little difficult. But if it was really– Man, they’re struggling with something, I can help them with. It. Those things just fed my soul.
John Hall 14:02
What drained you dry?
Chris Osborne 14:03
What drains you dry is premarital couples that didn’t want to be there. You’re trying to pull teeth, they don’t want to be there. People that–really this is going to sound terrible, but I’m just being honest today–when somebody says, my uncle in Tennessee has lambago, will you pray for him? Well, I don’t… I don’t know your uncle. I don’t even care about your uncle, right? I don’t know what lembago is, so I don’t… none of that matters. Because you feel bad as a pastor, but I can’t pray for everything that comes into my purvi.
John Hall 14:40
Did your church provide you avenues to help you so they weren’t contributing to those bricks that stack up and bring you to a place where you feel, I’m burning out on this?
Chris Osborne 14:57
Yeah, Central was very gracious to me. They gave me a good bit of vacation. Gave me time off for revivals, gave me a large stipend for books for me to buy. They gave me freedom in my schedule. I told them when I went [that] I would [do my days] in thirds, and they said, okay! So they were very gracious to me. I never felt any bad pressure from my church at Central. Now, my second church, I can’t make that statement, but I can my fourth church.
John Hall 15:28
So on the front end, if you were counseling a pastoral candidate, a candidate with a church to go as the pastor, what would you tell that pastor that he needed? What conversation does he need to have on the front end with a search committee, to put things in place that will protect him from cratering his ministry, his life, his marriage, those kinds of things?
Chris Osborne 15:55
I think he’s got to be upfront about a couple things. I’m back to– Here’s my schedule. I’m going to live it out. If you can’t live with that, I’m not coming. You’re hiring me, not my wife. She’ll find her place. I’ll help her do that. She and I [will be] discussing this, but that’s her call. It’s not even my call, it’s hers. It’s not going to be yours. I’m going to protect my wife, same with my kids. I’m going to say my kids are going to sin. I’ll deal with that, but that’s part of the problem. They inherited that for me. So they’re going to sin. We’re just going to do the best we can.
Chris Osborne 16:32
I want them to know… this is kind of a modern thing. I did it in my last, probably, 20 years at Central. But in my office, I’m going to have an audio and video recording of anybody that comes in. So there’s no question. When anybody leaves, did I touch her? Did I kiss her? Did I hug her? That’s out, and I want them to know. Tt’s legal to record without anybody knowing, as long as you’re in the room. But I want them to know, I’m going to do some recordings to protect me and to protect the church. So I won’t meet with a woman. I was very serious about the Billy Graham rule. I didn’t let my staff– we didn’t ride, even with staff members that were female alone, even to lunch. So I want those things laid out. I would deal with money at the end. I never debated what they were going to give me. I assumed, if God was sending me, he’d take care of me. These young guys, they’ll debate money all day long. That’s their call. But I just didn’t do that.
John Hall 17:40
Yeah, I’m with you, especially on, well, on everything you’ve said, but the the money factor. I just don’t bring it up, right? I’m always grateful when they approach the subject and counting on them to do it. But when they don’t– like you, if God’s calling me to a place of service and ministry, I’m going to trust he’s going to take care of me and use them to do that. They have to know we have needs, and we need to feed our kids and those kinds of things. And I think that’s excellent counsel you give a younger man who’s just kind of getting started doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.
Chris Osborne 18:18
The other thing I tell these guys, I said, When you get on the field, don’t go in with both guns blazing. The average stay for a pastor is two and a half years. So if you’re there, they’ve had 20 years, [and] they’ve had probably eight pastors. They know you’re going to be there a couple of years. So don’t go in changing everything. Just love them, marry them, bury them, care about them, and if God leaves you there over time, they’ll warm to you over that deacon that’s been there 25 years. And you can lead them then, but don’t go in both guns blazing, “I’m the pastor! I’m the fourth person of the Trinity! You need to listen to me!”
John Hall 19:02
Well, you stayed 33 years at Central. It says so much about you, about God’s grace, even about the church. If you could whittle it down to […] what three things allowed you to stay such a long time in one place without crashing and burning?
Chris Osborne 19:30
Yeah, number one, I actually lived out everything I said to live out today. But also, Aristotle said good preaching–not preaching, but rhetoric–was logos, pathos, ethos. I think those three things… I think when I preached, my content was good. I worked hard on my content. I think it was decent. I think my pathos was good. The congregation and I connected. I walked up and down the aisles before the congregation, before the sermon. On Sunday mornings, I chitchat with people. I tried to get somebody at lunch and breakfast every, almost every day of the week. I met with […] counseled adults, Monday afternoons, Thursday afternoons. And I counseled children Wednesday afternoons. And, boy, that gave me an inroad to young couples. So I did all those things, so I had a connection with my people. And I think the other thing was my ethos. I certainly was not perfect by any stretch in that imagination, but they trusted who I was morally. And so, when those three things work together, I don’t think they’re just for rhetoric. I think they’re good for pastoring. I think they make you effective there. And I think it’s why I was able to stay. And I got the church in a lot of debt. So I’ve learned you have two keys: short sermons, big debt, they they won’t fire you.
John Hall 21:02
Well, after 33 years at one church and 43 years total in pastoral ministry, in your perspective and opinion, who were the most dangerous people in your church that you had to have an antenna for? because they could contribute to your own discouragement and difficulty in the church?
Chris Osborne 21:26
There were two kinds of people. This sounds crazy, but there was the person that would come up to me and say, Oh brother, Chris, you’re the greatest preacher I’ve ever heard. Which I at first, I take it and run with! Oh, you’re right! And then after a while, you realize what they really means is, so far, everything you’ve said, I’ve agreed with. And then the minute you cross them, boy, here they go, they’re after you. And then I couldn’t deal with the chronic complainers. You know, it’s too hot, it’s too cold. I don’t like the pews. The color is bad, none of which I care about. You know, if you come to me and say, I didn’t think you were right when you said this about John the Baptist, okay, we have this. I’m good there. Sure, we’re discussing some legitimate content. But when you’re just whining and it’s constant– Every Sunday, there’s some nitpicky thing you don’t like… Those people, they will exhaust you. They’ll just take your life away from you.
John Hall 22:20
That’s such a great honest answer.
John Hall 22:32
How did you handle the cumulative effect of battling to move the church forward? Because I think that can contribute to burnout.
Chris Osborne 22:49
I really do think you go back to disciples. If I if that’s really my focus, then I’m not worried about anything else. We had a rule. I actually had rule when I went to Central. I had a lot of pressure, because I remember […] after they voted me in, we’re back home in Midland, you know, packing up, and my chairman of the committee comes out in the paper there, in Bryan, and says, “Dr Osborne’s here, we certainly expect an explosion of growth now!” And I’m like, Oh, good. You did not just say that. So I’m I’m kind of freaking out, but when I really focused on the discipleship thing, and I had a clear rule, two rules: (1) I was chasing disciples, and (2) we would never built anything unless we were forced to. So when we got forced to, it was kind of easy. I remember we sold our eight acres in Bryan and bought 110 acres in College Station. And the reason we did it was we were at three Sunday morning services. One Sunday night service, my chairman of deacons dropped his wife off. We were in a neighborhood, [and he] drove around the neighborhood for 20 minutes, couldn’t find a space, because we got all these Aggies. So, we couldn’t find a space. He couldn’t find a space next deacons meeting. He said, We got to do something, yeah? So we just never built unless we had to. Which, that way, I’m not pushing them. They’re actually coming to me and going, what are we going to do here?
Chris Osborne 24:24
That’s a clever way to approach that.
Chris Osborne 24:31
I never felt the pressure of moving them anywhere.
John Hall 24:35
Did you have times in the relationship you had with your church–all those years in one place–where you had moments where you stood before the congregation and, I mean, put your cards on the table, said, here’s where I’m at. You’ve kind of brought me to this place.
Chris Osborne 24:55
Yeah, I think if you went back and asked my people, I was consistently honest with what I felt about them and felt about me and felt about us. I think I was consistently honest in my application across the board there, and I think they would have said that was continuous refrain.
John Hall 25:15
So I guess maybe asking a bit of a different way. Moments where you needed to stand before the congregation and have kind of a Pauline moment, like 2 Corinthians, and say, I shouldn’t have to commend myself to you, but here we are. And I know you don’t want to do that every Sunday.
Chris Osborne 25:37
There were a couple of what I would call “come to Jesus” moments. One of them was over the music. We had all these college students coming. We had all these blue hairs, and they don’t agree on the music. So I finally got up one Sunday morning. We were in the new sanctuary, so running about 2800-2900. And I got up and I said, Okay, we’re going to have a little “come to Jesus” today. Yeah. I said number one, those of you that are older, you’re the mature ones. You should be rocking with the music of the young ones, because it’s on you, not on them. They’re they’re the new disciples. You’re the old disciples. Your job is to leave a legacy. […] I said Israel failed because they never passed their faith [down]. Now, I said, we are not going to be that church here. And if that’s a problem for you, there are other churches in town. Not telling you to leave, but I’m telling you [it may] be better for you. And so we had a huge “come to Jesus,” and it was interesting. I got great emails, great responses. My old folks said, You’re right, yeah. So we tried to balance the music, where we had some for both, but a little more contemporary. Took the choir out of the robes, let them stay up some, but we tried to balance it as best we could. But my older folks said, You’re right.
John Hall 26:50
That’s wonderful. Well, obviously you did a great job at Central, and have a lot of wisdom you’ve shared. And I know we have those who are participating with us that have questions themselves. So I can hardly wait to get their questions and hear what you had. See how this plays out [..] Beka is gonna walk us through some of these. Bring on board some of those who got questions.
Beka Hodges 27:15
Thank you guys for all of that wisdom. I took some notes. Now what we’re going to do– if you haven’t joined a call before, this next portion of the call, you’re allowed to ask your own questions, maybe give some feedback […] how you’ve experienced this in your ministry or dealt with this in the area that you serve. But while you guys are thinking, just as a reminder, if you hit the “Raise Your Hand” button at the bottom of your screen, we’ll unmute you, let you ask your question, or you can drop it in the chat, and I’ll be passing those along […] moderating this portion. So while I give you guys a chance to think of any questions, comments, thoughts that you might have, we had a handful of questions submitted in advance that I thought we could run through. Dr Osborne and John might take a crack at answering. So I know on our call, we have a wide variety of alumni serving both in church proper ministry or maybe parachurch ministry. And so one of the questions that was submitted was, what are the signs of burnout, and what changes could I make to reduce the chances of burnout? And along with that, what are some ways that my area of ministry that I serve in could help me avoid burnout? So if you guys want to take a crack at answering that one?
John Hall 28:31
What are the signs of burnout?
Chris Osborne 28:34
I really think the major sign is you don’t like your church anymore, and you don’t want to go to work. I think when you don’t want to preach a sermon, you don’t want to go to work. You don’t like your people, you dread counseling. I think when you feel those you’re at burnout.
John Hall 28:53
That’s a good answer. When you start to resent […] duties that are yours, that normally you would welcome and embrace, and you’re starting to consistently feel a resentment towards […] those that escort that into your life, you’re probably close to burnout.
Chris Osborne 29:18
Yeah, I think so. I think that’s a good word when you resent the call he’s placed on your life, which is really what it is, We’re almost back to the rebellion thing. I resent, what he’s asked me to do.
John Hall 29:32
It’s an interesting take on it. Yeah, the resentment thing. I think, when you’re not able to overcome the chronic weariness and you just it’s just one more thing I have to do, one more phone call, I have to make one more email I need to respond to, one more text I need to answer. And that starts to pile up to the […] place where you don’t even want to do any of it, potentially. Not in every case, certainly not. But I think […] you’re, you’re touching on something can raise its ugly head.
Chris Osborne 30:14
Yeah, and it’s hard. The problem is, there are a couple things. There are going to be times when you go through– Like, if you fire a staff member, you’re going to have certain people in church mad at you, and that’s going to wear you out. And I don’t think that moment is the same as burnout, right? You may have the same result and go, I don’t want to go to church [any]more. I don’t want to face these people. I don’t want to be there Sunday. But I think that kind of episodic pain is not the same as burnout.
John Hall 30:43
That’s a good point, and I appreciate you distinguishing the difference, because I think we’re all going to have that, and probably more frequently than we would desire.
Chris Osborne 30:54
I fired a worship guy, and you’d have thought we shot 12 nuns on the front sidewalk. So you just never know sure […] what’s coming.
Beka Hodges 31:06
So, to kind of follow that thread, this alumnus said, What can I do to prevent burnout from affecting my family?
Chris Osborne 31:17
I think John’s got the answer to that. Spend time with them.
John Hall 31:22
I would offer that I’ve– through the years, have certainly made mistakes with my children. Things I’ve said and maybe the way I said it. But one regret I do not have, and I say this, by God’s grace, is the amount of time I spent with my kids. And my kids would echo that they if they were honest. I’ve spent time with my kids, and something about spending time with them, especially when they were younger, really helped combat, for me, the difficulties that I was having in my pastorate. Wen I first came to Field Street, it was very challenging, and I was fighting a lot of battles […] I went through a rough time. I would be willing to say some of it was of my own making, but a large portion of it, I had nothing to do [with]. It just kind of what was on my plate. But there was always that time when I would go home, where that was a very refreshing time for me. And I would try to set aside what was going on in my heart and life at the church, so that when I got home, I was really my girl’s dad. And they had, whether they intended to or not, they had a way of bringing a joy to my life that no one could steal, not even the most dangerous person in the church. […] But spending time with my family was really a way for me to kind of compartmentalize, at least at the moment, and set aside that what I was going through at church. I didn’t need to drag that home, right? Kick my dog and scream at my wife and fuss at my children… And I always felt like– Field Street had 17 pastors before I came. I’m Pastor number 18. They’re going to have 17 more after I’m gone, but my kids get one dad, and I don’t want resentment creeping into their hearts because their dad was always grouchy or unavailable or dealing with something at the church. And I think they would say that when I was with them, they had my undivided attention.
Chris Osborne 33:44
That is such a good answer. That’s great.
John Hall 33:48
I think that would be the fit with my family. If I ever thought the church was creeping in too much and too close to my family, then I would retreat with them, and that helped. Fortunately for me–in my case–it’s not true in every case, but Field Street has been good at respecting our boundaries as a family, and I’m appreciative of that. And I know that’s not true of every church. And if you give a church an inch, they’ll take two. I mean, they we talked about that earlier. You You Give a Mouse a Cookie, they’re going to want another cookie and a glass of milk.
Chris Osborne 34:27
And the refrigerator.
John Hall 34:30
So I think retreating with your family, spending the time you need to with them. And always felt my first ministry really was to my family first. Because if my family went off the rails, it kind of dinged any credibility I could potentially have with the church. And so I was very upfront with Field Street on the front end. When you’re talking about what you’d say–I really appreciated your wisdom in that–but I told the church, if you wanted a pastor who would be up here every night discussing things that we could deal with in one meeting, with an email, then do not call me as your pastor, because I really was committed to my family. And our back story was we have three adopted children, and we couldn’t have biological kids, and so we just felt like, whenever the Lord gave us a family, no way was I going to neglect them.
Chris Osborne 35:30
I think that is the perfect answer to that. I really do.
Beka Hodges 35:33
So, I know you mentioned the sabbatical. One other question that was submitted says, Some churches offer a time away from the church responsibilities known as a sabbatical. Is that helpful? What’s a reasonable amount of time for a sabbatical and what should be included in the time away that can assist the person serving in that area of ministry?
Chris Osborne 35:55
I took one sabbatical in 43 years. I took a three-month sabbatical to come up here and write my prospectus for my dissertation. When I was doing a PhD (I have 42 years between my degrees, ’77 MDiv and 2019 PhD), so it’s pretty crazy. But I never now, all the young guys take sabbaticals. They take a month off. Perfect. I think Kevin Eckert signed up for this, and Eckert takes, I think, every July off and works on his sermons for the year. I think Ed Young did that. So I think something like that is more than valuable. But, you don’t want to base your ability to handle the daily stuff on a sabbatical, because that’s not coming off. You want to handle that on your Sabbath, your prayer time […] chasing the right thing […] building with your family. You want to handle all that on that, on those things that are weekly. You don’t want to base your ability to handle what you’re going to face on, Okay, I’ve got a sabbatical coming up in July. Well, it’s August. You got 11 months here. I think you want to be careful there.
John Hall 37:09
Yeah, that’s a excellent answer. I would add to it simply, for me, my church has graciously extended a sabbatical leave at my 10 year anniversary and my 20th anniversary. So every 10 years I’ve been granted a sabbatical. My sabbatical leave has been a lifesaver for a lot of reasons. But a good sabbatical needs to be very carefully planned. It’s not a glorified vacation. It should be focused on what can help you be more effective in the execution of your ministry and your calling. I read books, I met with pastors. I traveled to other churches. I picked the brain of men like Dr. Osborne and others who had been at their churches for decades. How did you do that? How do you stay somewhere? How do you battle those dragons that want to peel away your joy and those things that bring you fulfillment? And then a portion of my sabbatical, in agreement with the church, was to be devoted to just being away. And I chose to be away with my family. There’s there’s no one else I’d rather be with than my wife and my children. And so, part of my sabbatical leave, each of those two times, was spent being with my family, and it just refreshed me and rejuvenated me. And then there was something about being in in other church settings that galvanized for me. Or I should say, reaffirmed [where my] deeply-held convictions lie. Expository preaching.I visited churches where they barely opened the Bible. It was just a reminder–and not knocking that necessarily, that’s probably for another [time].
John Hall 39:20
But I found that it just reaffirmed my own commitment to the disciplines necessary to feed your church messages completely tethered to the Word of God. And God moved in my heart in special ways during my sabbatical leave. So if your church is willing to grant you one, my suggestion would be, it needs to be very well planned. And I think a month is great. If they’ll give you two, that’s great. But a month, for me, was perfect. But it requires a lot of planning. And it isn’t just a glorified–I can’t say this enough–it’s not a glorified vacation. You don’t want to come back in your church, and they look att you and go, The guy’s a clown! What did he do while he was away?
Chris Osborne 40:05
See, there’s a difference between me and John. He’s right. Your sabbatical should be around your family and actually your ministry. If I took a sabbatical, my golf handicap would be better. So that’s the difference between me and John. John actually did something with it. I’d have a better golf game. So I’m just being as honest as I may be, striking a balance between the two of us would be helpful.
John Hall 40:31
Sabbatical leaves were real lifelines for me, particularly where I was in my ministry arc at the church I served. And my hope was that I would come back from the sabbatical, and the church would go, Wan, we are so thankful we gave that to him! We see a difference, and we see a renewed energy and a renewed vitality. And his preaching improved, and he was wiser. And his–I don’t tan–so he got a nice sunburn! But I’m a big fan of the sabbatical, if it’s done properly.
Chris Osborne 41:06
Weah, I think that’s great wisdom. You need to do it properly, not the Dr. Osborne way.
Beka Hodges 41:14
All right. Well, I think we’ve got one last question here. What are some methods for staying connected to the vine that you found helpful to sustain yourself throughout ministry?
Chris Osborne 41:23
John 15, the vine, is that what he’s talking about. Okay, look, I don’t think there’s any trick to this. So, I went in my man cave every morning at six. I think the first thing you do– there’s a great verse […] Ecclesiastes 3. He says, Guard your steps when you go to the house of God, to listen more than talk. So I think for me, you don’t go in– What most people do [is,] they’ve got their prayer list. I’m trying to be a good pastor. I go in, I tell God what he ought to be doing with everybody on that list, which is a little bit backwards to me, right? So I think what you ought to do is take that list, open it up and say, Okay, Father, I’m listening. I’m going to read the Scripture quickly, until I sense that I’m not thinking about anything but Christ. And then I’m going to sit down and say, Okay, Father, how should I pray for John Hall? […] What does he need today? Not what I think you should do, but what do you think I should pray to occur in his life? So if I can learn, and this was the hardest thing for me, if I can learn to listen more than I talk in my prayer time, I think that’s one aspect of being in the vine.
Chris Osborne 42:28
But the second aspect, which is probably more important than that. You have to trust every promise he lays out in the Scripture. I think the number one sin punished in the Bible is not molestation. It is not adulteries. It is not even murder. It is lack of faith. Israel doesn’t believe God. They wandered for 40 years, and it’s intriguing, when Joshua gets and starts in the land, Rahab says we’ve been afraid of you for 40 years. So you’ve got these pagans that had a better faith in Jehovah than his own people did. So I think you have to take every promise he lays out there and say, God, right now, it doesn’t look like you can do this, but I’m trusting you to handle it, so I think you’ve got to trust God to honor what he says. So, I think it’s my time with him and my trust in Him that connects me spiritually to Christ.
John Hall 43:58
That’s an excellent answer. I completely concur. It’s the staying tethered to the Word of God and letting scripture feed your heart and soul. Tt starts there. That’s where I start my days. Yeah, reading the Word of God.
Chris Osborne 44:11
Much better than starting with Fox News or CNN, whichever way you lean.
John Hall 44:19
Yes, I really appreciate you reaffirming that. That’s true for me. True for any minister, you got to have a relationship that’s growing with Christ. It starts with the reading of the Bible.
Chris Osborne 44:32
So the problem, sometimes in the seminary, we get so caught up in academic arguments, we forget what really matters.
John Hall 44:39
Tt’s the relationship.
Beka Hodges 44:45
All right. Well, that brings us to the end of this episode. We are so thankful to Dr. Osborne and John, who have answered many […] questions that we got in advance. And just know, we are doing this resource monthly, and so we’ll have another episode coming out in October for you guys to join. You should receive an email about that in the next couple of days, it’ll be with Dr. [Jefferey] Bingham, and he’s going to cover the topic of how Christian theology shapes Christian love. In the meantime, if you have a topic you’d like to hear discussed on the Southwesterners’ Forum, send that our way. We want to hear from you in the Alumni Office. You can email us at alumni@swbts.edu, and just know we’re praying for you. We’re praying for your ministry, and we look forward to you joining us on the next call. Thank you!
